NUUN x Dr. Yasir Qadhi x Sheikh Mahdi Rastani
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Shaykh Yasir is a distinguished Sunni Scholar and Community Voice, born and raised in the US and having studied at the Islamic University of Madina for 10 years before moving on to get a PhD from Yale University. He currently serves as Resident Alim of the East Plano Islamic Center and the Dean of the Islamic Seminary of America.
Shaykh Mahdi Rastani is a distinguished Shia Scholar and Community Voice, born and raised in the US and having studied in the Islamic Seminary of Qum for 6 years before continuing his education under numerous Shi’i Ulama. He currently serves as resident Alim of City of Knowledge, a Shia Islamic Center.
In this discussion, Shaykh Mahdi Rastani and Shaykh Yasir Qadhi engage in a historic, honest dialogue, exploring the similarities between their respective schools of thought and addressing the irreconcilable differences, discussing unity, cooperation, and agreement to disagree.
Below is a full transcript of their discussion at Nuun Collective on May 15, 2026
00:01:14 Speaker Introduction
Kamran Kazmi
I want to start the conversation today first to thank Sheikh Yasir, Sheikh Madhi, the City of Knowledge, and the Dallas Youth Group. Can we give a round of applause for them?
Every single person who is here today is here because of a label. And these labels, whether it be Sunni or Shia, they give us this instinct to be against or distance from. The dialogue that is happening today is to collapse that distance and to bring forward this idea of a collective ummah.
Sheikh Mahdi, Sheikh Yasir, two years ago, we first had this conversation about doing an event like this.
What is the gravity of this conversation in the time and place that we’re living in, and what do we hope to achieve by it?
Sheikh Yasir Qadhi:
So much can be said, time is always limited. 33 years ago, I had my first Sunni-Shia dialogue 33 years ago, but it wasn’t a dialogue; it was a debate.
Times were different, the world was different, and I didn’t have any white hair, so I was a much younger YQ. In the course of the last three decades, not only has white hair come with a little bit of maybe wisdom and maturity, but the world circumstances, the rise of anti-Muslim bigotry, Islamophobia, the understanding that our situation in America requires us to break away from tendencies that might be common in other places, whether they’re good or bad, that’s another question.
But we here in this country have enough on our plates, we have enough to deal with, we have enough problems from other people, so that we don’t have to create problems from within. And so, for me personally, my own trajectory, I hope inshaAllah has shown this. There are people in our communities, both of our communities, who don’t want to see us sit on the same panel.
I got hate mail and tweets and whatnot, I’m sure you did as well. Vulgar comments, because of sitting at the same table. Isn’t it high time that we demonstrate to you, to the people of our community, to the Muslims of America, and maybe the Muslims of the world, that we can disagree and still be civil?
We don’t have to see eye to eye on every single issue to realize that we have people that want to demolish both of our mosques, they want to ban both of our trends, they lump us together, then why are we dividing amongst ourselves against them?
So the goal and the purpose for me is very clear, and that is mature dialogue. Nobody is saying that the differences don’t exist, nobody is saying that the differences are even trivial, they might be substantial, but in spite of those differences, what we have in common, wallahi, is much more than what we might disagree about.
So for the sake of our own children, for the sake of you, the future of this ummah, for the sake of our freedoms in this country, we need to reach a level of maturity, a disagreement that is civil and friendly and cordial, takes into account our histories and trajectories and our current context and a collaboration and a cooperation that isn’t just of temporary convenience. It is of understanding that actually we’re in this together, we really are, we are in one family, this is the same family, and when families disagree, they will disagree, but when people from the outside want to destroy that family, families must unite, because at the end of the day, there’s a shared bond, a shared blood, a shared heritage.
So we are united in that family, we are united in the kalimah, we are united in the book of Allah, we are united in belief in taw’idri sa’ala akhirah. So all other disagreements, I’m not saying make them disappear, I’m saying let us keep them in reality of what we agree upon, so the goal is very simple and that is mature dialogue, sensible dialogue, in which we can figure out a mechanism of coming together for the greater good even as we might at times, separate organically for our personal issues, that’s fine, but let us have those ties of kinship, those bonds of brotherhood, and let us figure out a way that together we can be united family of Islam.
Sheikh Mahdi Rastani
First and foremost, I’m quite honored and happy to be with all of you tonight in this beautiful gathering, special thanks to Nuun, special thanks to our dear Sheikh Yasir, who is here. I came in, and I saw Mashallah, so many of our youth, so many of our audience, the host is young Mashallah, one scholar is young also, and then I saw the wise Sheikh Yasir, may Allah bless him, his family, insha’Allah.
Before I get into a little bit about similar sentiments that Sheikh Yasir mentioned, I wanted to just mention a couple of disclaimers regarding tonight’s event, very similar to what Sheikh Yasir mentioned. So obviously, this discussion, this dialogue is not meant to be a debate, leading up to this event, I had uncles coming up to me, and they said, “Maulana Saab, we are praying for your debate.”
I said, “No, no, no, this is not a debate, this is meant to be a dialogue, if it was a debate, I wouldn’t even be here tonight, you know, and I think I can kind of say the same for our dear Sheikh Yasir. So it’s meant to be a dialogue, and I hope that tonight, more than anything that I say or Sheikh Yasir says, more than what we say, standing out, I hope the way it’s said insha’Allah stands out to you. That is the core message, the most important message of a night like this, insha’Allah. And I want to add to that, I think what’s also special about having these scholars involved, I struggle to call myself a scholar, but for the brevity of the discussion we’re just going to go with that title, is that both of them not only have familiarity with some of the differences between the two schools of thoughts, they are also both community voices and I think that’s very important. I’m sure Sheikh Yasir has a similar understanding, a similar experience. There are concerns we have about our own communities that keep us up at night.
There are things we think about that we say, you know what, I wish this younger generation understood A, understood B, understood C, and how can I communicate this to them? So I think it’s really special that the two people involved are not just people who might know theory. Theory is one thing, community building is a different thing altogether. That’s a very important distinction, and alhamdulillah, both of those have come together in our dear Sheikh.
So that was the first point I wanted to make. Second point I wanted to make is, please brothers and sisters, tonight’s session shouldn’t be seen as an end-all be-all session. Your understanding, if you’re Sunni, your understanding of Shi’ism, and if you’re Shia, your understanding of Sunnism should in no way be limited to one two-hour session.
This is a lifelong journey, should continue to learn. This is one piece of a bigger puzzle inshAllah for you, to learn about the diversity that alhamdulillah we have within Islam. And so there’s a lot of points as we discuss these points, there’s a lot of points that we may not get to on even the topics that we’re planning to discuss. This is not meant as a polemic discussion. No, inshAllah everyone has to take what is mentioned tonight and inshAllah continue their learning journey. On every topic, there’s more to be discussed.
No Shi’a scholar or Sunni scholar can represent the 1400-year scholarship that exists in both schools of thought. And so this is an attempt, it is a humble attempt. And so this is on behalf of the audience, I’m mentioning that this should not be the end-all, be-all for you. Let me go one step further for those who watch the recording later, even for other scholars who might watch this. It might be an event in some senses, the first of its kind.
But my goal inshAllah, is for this to become a template that is utilized by other scholars. InshaAllah, other scholars can reach out to their Shi’a and Sunni counterparts and have similar conversations. This is just one piece of a bigger puzzle inshAllah. Having said that, let me just touch on what Sheikh Yasir also kind of touched on. I think fundamentally, there are three levels of interaction between the two schools of thought. At the first level, you have a bare minimum tolerance. Even that is missing in some parts of the world. Even that, and certainly on social media.
If you visit TikTok, Sheikh, you know TikTok, this one. Okay.
No, because Sheikh doesn’t waste his time on this stuff.
But if you go on Instagram or TikTok, just look at the comment section. I don’t see a lot of tolerance there. You don’t see a lot of respect when it comes to our differences there. That’s the bare minimum. I think if we take steps in that direction, just that will be very valuable, by the way. Then comes level number two. We discuss our differences, and we actually get into some of the theological differences. Which is what you will witness tonight inshAllah in a minimal or limited manner. And then thirdly is the U word. Okay. Unity. That I think is the ideal. I don’t think we’re close there yet. But it can happen in glimpses. It can happen in glimpses. You know we’re trying to vote this person in. We’re trying to work together for a particular cause. I will end with this and pass it back to you inshAllah.
Just like Sheikh Yasir said. I do not believe in this concept of Shia and Sunni being kind, friendly, and cordial together. Only when there is a common enemy.
He already touched on this. No. And what I understand from the teachings of the Ahlul Bayt. Just from my own perspective. Is that this closeness, this nearness, exists regardless of whether there is a common enemy or not. Of course, when there’s a common enemy. The need is, of course, emphasized even more and even bigger. So inshAllah I hope that tonight is a step in that direction inshā’Allāh.
00:13:07 What is a Sunni and a Shia?
Kamran Kazmi:
Before we get to the nuance of today’s conversation, I think it’s very important to define terms. Like, what is a Shia? What is a Sunni? And what makes it so unique?
00:13:23 What is a Shia?
Sheikh Mahdi Rastani:
Yeah, there’s a lot of technical terminology and so on and so forth. I think for the simplicity of our discussion. When we talk about someone who is Shia, we are talking about someone who, of course, believes in the oneness of Allah SAW. He believes in the Prophethood of the Messenger of Allah, PBUH.
So you know, Sheikh, we have this habit. Every time the name comes. So I’m gonna ask the Shia crowd tonight. Because we’re gonna mention our Prophet a lot. So what we’ll do is we’ll do one loud salawat.
So I’m gonna keep mentioning inshaAllah. So hopefully that will... One at the beginning and one at the end inshaAllah. Otherwise, we won’t get to any topic. So the Prophethood of our beloved Messenger. And of course, the Day of Judgment. And also the idea that the Messenger of Allah, by the command of Allah SAW appointed a successor for himself. In Ali ibn Abi’at-Qalib and then also from his lineage, other individuals.
So this idea that obeying or having loyalty to this successor and his...It is obligatory to act upon his teachings, which is fundamentally what someone would come into the fold of. Shi’ism, of course, is not monolithic. In the same way, Sunnism is not monolithic. There are branches, there are different understandings, there are different strands. But I think this element is probably the core element.
00:15:08 What is a Sunni?
Sheikh Yasir Qadhi
Just a comment on the Salawats.
By the way, Sunnis obviously also do this. The Prophet SAW said that he asked the Sahaba who was the most miserly. They said who is the most miserly. He said the one who, when my name is mentioned, does not say salam upon me. So the Sunnis also say salam, but we do it quietly. So don’t think that this is something that divides. It is just how it is done.
So we also say the Salat, but we say it every time the Prophet SAW. We also say the Salat.
So what is the definition of a Sunni? Sunni is a shortened version of the term Ahlul-Sunnah wa-Jama’ah, and the term Ahlul-Sunnah wa-Jama’ah means that Sunnis are obviously one of the branches of Islam. So obviously, they believe in all of the things that Muslims believe in. Tawhidrissala akhirah. But then they also add that our methodology for worshipping Allah SAW is based upon the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW as preserved in his traditions, as preserved in his sayings.
So we do not believe that there is any one divinely appointed person. Rather, we believe in the collective Ichthihad of scholars. The Prophet SAW said in a hadith in our tradition that Alulama wa-Rathatul Ambiya. The scholars, the scholarly class, Alulama, not an’alim, not an’imam, Alulama, collectively the scholars are the inheritors of the Prophet Muhammad SAW. So we believe that the Prophet SAW left us the Quran and his Sunnah, and collectively the scholars then interpret that, and we tolerate a vast array of differences within legal issues and even within aspects of theology. But obviously, certain beliefs would then be considered to be outside of Sunnism, and obviously, the belief in imamah here is where the dividing line would happen.
The divinely appointed single person, called the imam, versus the collective group scholarly effort. This is where I think one of the main differences would be between the Sunnah and the Shi’a.
00:17:20 Imamah in Shia Paradigm
Kamran Kazmi
I want to kind of double pick on something that you said about this concept of imamah. I think there’s a perception that imamah is a continuation of the Prophet. Can you explain to us what imamah is in the Shi’a paradigm?
Sheikh Mahdi Rastani
Yes, so I mean it depends on how we define imamah. Yes, we do believe that the guidance that an imamah offers, which I’ll discuss a little bit more in detail what that looks like exactly, is in some sense the continuation of the guidance of Allah SA. But of course, it’s different from the revelation and the guidance of the messenger of Allah in ways that inshaAllah I’ll discuss.
So fundamentally, the role of an imamah is four main roles. There are other categorizations, by the way, in a lot of what I’m discussing tonight, there are a lot of minority opinions. I’m not going to have time to get into all of that because we won’t get through our discussions.
There are four main roles that an imamah plays. The first of those four roles is going to be that, he is a source of religious knowledge and religious guidance. When the ummah, for example, wants to figure out how did the messenger of Allah pray, they would come to ask this individual. When they want to understand what is the sunnah of the messenger of Allah, they would come to ask this individual. It doesn’t mean things like history don’t play a role, they do of course, but of course what he says has the final word on these types of things. So in that first role, which is guidance, offering religious knowledge, the role of the imam, and this is a very important detail, and this will answer your question about the separation, the role of the imam is within a particular framework and within a particular scope. He’s not going to go beyond that scope. And that scope is his role as a mufasir and as someone who is doing tafsihil of the faith that the messenger of Allah has already brought to us. So, the messenger of Allah, his life comes to an end, immediately the ashab, they put together the verses of the Qur’an because they automatically know that with the end of the life of the messenger of Allah, there are no more verses of the Qur’an. This is done. So now they are going to take these verses of the Qur’an with some iktilaf when it was exactly done, but generally speaking, they’re going to put it beinat daf fatim, right? And now you’re going to have a mushaf, right? So the understanding is revelation in terms of the verses of the Qur’an is done.
Therefore, when the imam wants to offer guidance, he will only operate within the scope of the principles that the Qur’an first and foremost has put forth, and then, of course, what is established from the messenger of Allah.
In this, we have a number of narrations called riwayatul ar, the narrations of presenting. So, what this means is that if there is a narration that indicates that what the imam is saying, meaning it’s attributed to him, that the imam is saying something that is outside of the fold of the Qur’an, meaning it contradicts the verses of the Qur’an. Or it contradicts something that we know for sure from the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah. This narration is set aside. It is rejected.
The number of narrations we have on the topic of riwayatul ar, this presentation, meaning you put it up against the standard of the Qur’an, is a multitude of narrations. It’s not one or two narrations. Of course, like all schools of thought, there is debate on the interpretation of the verses of the Qur’an itself. So one scholar will look at a verse and say, “This hadith is against this verse.” Another scholar might look at the same verse and say, “No, no, this is not against that verse.” So these differences of opinion, of course, exist in all schools of thought. But this is the scope in which the imam can operate, basically, which means he can never do nasi. He can never come forward and say, “This Qur’anic concept, it doesn’t exist anymore. He is not allowed to do this.” When I say not allowed, it means he won’t do this. Okay, now these are details. We’ll leave it for another time.
So, role number one, guidance. Role number two, political leadership. And this is what, in the Sunni school of thought, we typically hear of askhilafah. And when we say khalifa, we are predominantly referring to the political role of this individual. For us, the reason why the history of early Islamic history is quite important is that figuring out if this family has successorship or not is not just going to play a role on the political side. I mean, this is a question I get from a lot of our youth. These are things that happened 1400 years ago. Why do we even have to discuss this stuff? The answer is because for us, the imam is not just a political leader. If he was just a political leader, we’d say it happened 1400 years ago and we’re done. He is also a guide when it comes to how I’m supposed to pray right here and right now. How I’m supposed to fast, how I’m supposed to get married, how I’m... all of these things.
Okay, so this is the political leadership. Role number three is that the imam is a role model. He takes the prophetic model, and he manifests it and shows us what the prophetic model would have looked like in different times and in different eras. And so I’ll come back to this issue. Of course, today you guys know it’s the anniversary of the Nakba. May 15th is the anniversary that we are now at the 78th, if I’m not mistaken, anniversary of the Nakba. All of these things that we’ve witnessed, especially in the past two to three years. So for us, for example, when Karbala comes up, we’ll discuss Karbala a little bit later. When Karbala comes up, that is seen as a prophetic model, as in this is how the messenger of Allah would have acted. This is how he would have dealt with oppression, you know, if he was in that particular situation. Role number four, and I’ll pass it on in sha’Allah, is that we have a role for the imam called the taqwini role. Meaning it is part of shi’i belief and in a multitude of narrations that in every era and at every time there is a representative of Allah who lives amongst the people. And that person, when the messenger of Allah was alive, of course, is our beloved messenger, SAW. And after him, it is of course the imams of the Ahlul Bayt. So these are predominantly the four roles of an imam. Yes.
00:24:12 Sunni Perspective on Imamah
Kamran Kazmi
Sheikh Yasir, I want to ask you, what is the viewpoint of the Sunni tradition on that, on imamah?
Sheikh Yasir Qadhi
So one of the main things that I think we need to be very explicit about is that the perception of early Islam between the Sunni and the Shia’a is very different. And if the average Sunni and the average Shia were to write down what they know of the first 20, 30, 40, 50 years, it is as if you are reading two completely different histories. So when you engage with dialogue, you need to understand your perception of early Islam is not the perception of the person you’re talking with, in all likelihood. Right. And this is not the time to get into more details of which version is, that’s beyond the scope of this. You just need to understand how each side views the first 30, 40, 50 years is literally at odds with one another. You would not recognize the other side. Only those who studied, see, oh, that’s what they say. So, from the perspective of the sunnah of Sunni Islam, if Allah had willed to have an imam, it is not rationally impossible. Allah can do as he pleases, and having the presence of a divinely ordained imam is something within the purview, the permit of what is theologically permissible.
But from the Sunni paradigm, there’s no evidence from the Quran, from the sunnah as is interpreted by Sunni Islam, because obviously, how you interpret is all that. And from early history as well, that from our perspective, there’s simply no evidence to suggest such a figure or such a concept. And again, with respect, we have to be we have to be firm, but respectful. Obviously, there are many verses in the Quran that Ahir Tashayr used to prove this concept. That’s great. Just understand. And I want to be technical here.
Your understanding of evidence is not the same as the evidence. It is your understanding of the evidence. So when you quote evidence, and in your mind, you are extrapolating the final point. Do you understand that the same person can look at the same evidence and extrapolate a different point? So you need to be a little bit more understanding of how dialogue works, how psychology works, and how anchoring our biases works. All of these concepts are universal in all aspects, not just sectarianism. And so, how a verse of the Quran is first interpreted to you is how you understand it basically for the rest of your life. Right. We read the same Qur’an. We read the same books of Hadith. Right. And our perception of what is to be extracted is not the same. So, to simplify theologically, if Allah had willed there to be an imam, there would not be a problem for us to accept that. Doesn’t go against any aspect, but we don’t find in the Quran or in the sunnah as we understand it, or in the events of the first 30, 40, 50 years. And again, I went to Al-Tashiri to understand this. Again, we’re not having a debate, but it is important to understand from our perspective that the actions and the life of Ali RA himself indicate to us that there was no concept of this ma’asum imam. That’s from our perspective.
And I say this because a lot of misunderstandings occur as if we are a bunch of stuff, anti-Ahlul Bayt or anti-Ali RA. No, the Nasiba and the Shi’a, I know this term, the Nasiba no longer exists as a firqah on earth. This is a factual statement. The Nasiba used to exist. The Nasiba were a thriving community, especially under the Umayyads. But that version of Sunnism, which was one extreme version, no longer exists. You will not find a single scholar who is Nasibi in the technical sense. So, with our respect for all of the Sahaba, we’re going to get there, I know that, especially including Imam Ali RA. It includes him. And so, from our interpretation of his life, we do not view him as having believed himself. This is again our view. I know we do not view him as having believed that the Prophet SAW divinely ordained him to be the theological Imam. i.e., maybe he felt he was better qualified because again, for us, Imamah is not the same. And Khilafah is not the same. And Khilafah can be contested. We don’t have a problem saying you can have two people contest in the Khilafah. They’re both good people. That’s not a problem for us. Because remember, for us, Khilafah is not divinely ordained. So if Ali RA felt that, hey, maybe I should have gotten the role, that’s totally permissible. But that’s not from our interpretation, Ma’asum Imam divinely appointed. So, understand, this is really the fundamental difference between our two strands. And if you look at how each one views early Islam, you’re not going to agree with the other side, but you will empathize a little bit. We’re not rejecting the status of Ali RA. No, as you should all know, we consider him to be of the greatest of the Ashram al-Bashshara. And of the Ahlul Bayt, we give him the blessings that we believe Allah and his messenger bestowed upon him. But the concept of Ma’asum Imam, we do not derive it from the book that we read. We do not derive it from the tradition that is ours. And we also don’t derive it from early Islamic history. So this is where the fundamental difference occurs.
00:29:58
Sheikh Mahdi Rastani
I’ll touch on that. Just like Sheikh said, a lot of times, people look at the same verse of the Quran and have very different understandings. So of those verses, you know, if you see a Shia, quote, 33:33 to you, it’s very different from when a Sunni quotes 33:33. Exactly. Okay. So when a Sunni, typically, I’m saying quotes 33:33, usually he’s talking about Tabarruj.
Why are you doing Tabarruj? You know, Tabarujj, referring to the way one would dress. Right. For a Shia, no, 33:33 is talking about an elevated status of the Ahlul-Bayt. So, yeah, just like Sheikh is saying, we look at the same verses, and from those same verses, we have different understandings.
00:30:43 Clarification on the Viewpoint of Sahabas
Kamran Kazmi
Going deeper into kinds of figures in Islamic history, I know we touched up on it a little bit on the concept of Sahabas.
Obviously, this is a very tense point.
Sheikh Mahdi, I want to ask you first, what is the status of Sahaba in the Shia paradigm and their ideas of, you know, we hear in public about insulting the Sahaba and slandering the Sahaba.
Can you explain and clarify those viewpoints?
Sheikh Mahdi Rastani
So obviously, this is probably the most sensitive thing we’re going to discuss tonight. Right. The first time I sat down with Sheikh Yasir, he gave me a list. He said, “ These are the three things that are a sticky points between Shia and Sunni. Right. And there were two others that kind of will touch on tonight. And then he said, “ You know, the first one was the Quran, if I’m not mistaken. The second one was, you know, the status of Imam and Masoum Imam and so on and so forth. And the third one was the Shia approach to the Sahaba. Right.
So I understand that this is a sensitive topic. And so I’ll go through this through multiple points inshaAllah. So first and foremost, I think one thing that is a common misconception, and especially is important in the way this question is framed, is that the question always comes forward.
Why do the Shia have a negative view of the Sahabah? How many Sahabah do we have? They are in the thousands, right? When Hajjatul Wadaar came around, the messenger of Allah was surrounded by thousands of individuals. And I’m using the Sunni definition of Sahabi, you know, someone who saw the Prophet and died upon the faith of Islam. Right. So hundreds, thousands of Sahaba. The way the question is posed, and I’m not referring to Kamran here.
You know, Kamran, tonight is playing the role of Pakistan.
Sheikh Yasir Qadhi
Wait, who’s Trump here? What is that supposed to mean?
Sheikh Mahdi Rastani
So, you know, I won’t say who’s Iran and who’s USA.
I’ll just say I’m from Iran.
Yeah, so on this issue of the Sahaba, the way it’s posed. First point is no, this is factually incorrect to say the Shia have a problem with the Sahaba. I think it would be factually correct, in fact, to say that the Shia have a positive view of, if not the overwhelming majority of, the Sahaba. I think it would be possible to say the majority of the Sahaba. And these are, you know, we have Sahaba. We may not even know their name, by the way. We have Sahaba, like, you know, some of them, we know their names. They weren’t that well known, you know, and then we have Sahaba who are quite well known, you know.
And so you go down the list, you know, there’s Bilal, there’s Mihdad, there’s Salman, there’s Abu Dara’ah, it’s a long list. In fact, if you go for Hajj and Ummrah, if you see a group of people standing at the matbar of the shuhada of U’udh, you know, the grave of U’udh, the grave of Hamza. Yes. May Allah bless him and his soul. Hamza is a name that brings goosebumps to us, you know. And he is that person who represents that power that defended the Messenger of Allah and broke the back of the Messenger of Allah when the Messenger of Allah lost him, you know. So that is the first point I want to make.
Now, as it relates to those of the Sahaba that we do have a negative view of, yes, when we, just like Shaykh Yasir said, when we look at the verses of the Quran, we don’t deduce and conclude from the verses of the Quran a blanket approval of the Sahaba. As opposed to the Sunnis school of thought, at least that’s the dominant position. Yeah, I mean, the prominent, you know, I think probably most of them or all of them, maybe Shaykh can touch on that inshallah. We don’t understand it that way. We typically, those verses of the Quran are understood in the Shihi scholarship as either referring to a group of the Sahaba, like a particular group of them, or the Quran when it says, “Radi Allahu Anhum Radu Anh, Allah is pleased with them.” It is referring to that time where they are engaging in that amazing deed that the Quran is praising them for. Yes. “Lakat Radi Allahu Anhum Al Muhminina idhiubaa yirunaka” When they are giving bayah to you. That means now. Now, in the Shihi perspective, this is just our perspective. This is not understood as an approval for the rest of the life of the Sahabi. If he stays on the right path, yes. If he doesn’t stay on the right path, he doesn’t have that approval anymore.
Right? So this is typically how this topic is understood. So we don’t understand this comprehensive approval from the verses of the Quran. Therefore, our measuring stick is fundamentally history. And so we use history to deduce and conclude, did this person walk in the footsteps of the messenger of Allah, or did he, for example, not do so?
When it comes to a conclusion, let’s say for example as a Shihi, he looks at history, and he concludes, and like Shaykh said, those first decades at the very least are very different interpretations from both schools of thought. When he looks at that portion of history, he sees someone walking away from the footsteps of the messenger of Allah, or, from our perspective, disobeying the messenger of Allah. He has to do a form of disassociation.
This disassociation, by the way, is something that I’m not talking about the term tabari because that’s a set specific term. The idea of deep down in your heart saying, I reject this. This is also in the sunnah hadith corpus, if I’m not mistaken, the Messenger of Allah said, if you see someone doing wrong, something wrong, yes, change it with your hand, if not with your hand, with your tongue, if not with your tongue, with the qalbihi, right? With his heart. So this disassociation happens. Now, this is the sensitive part. The way this association happens is the crucial point.
And there are ways where we disassociate from some of the acquaintance of the Messenger of Allah that are approved by our scholars, meaning they have allowed it. And there are ways that some people do this that is not allowed. And so that comes to the point of insulting. So insulting, slander, verbal abuse. These are things that the rulings of Ayatollah Sistani, Ayatollah Khamenei are very clear about, that these are things that are intrinsically problematic and that one is not to engage in them. Now, the wording is for people who want to look it up. They can look it up. You know, I have from here, I have quotes in front of me. Al-Ihana is a term you will find very often when the question was posed to Ayatollah Sistani. And it was funny for me because they said in the question, they showed him a clip of a group of people slandering and insulting the Sahaba, and in particular, the second Khalifa, I think it was, and the wife of the Messenger of Allah, Aisha. He said, and this became his official fatwa, that this is absolutely condemned. Beyond this, let me add one more point. We also have another set of rulings from our scholars that is actually a little bit more broad than this that goes beyond just Sabu Sahaba. And that is a set of rulings from both of these grand scholars that will tell us that anything, any action that brings about and fans the flames of sectarianism, is forbidden.
This is quite clear in the rulings of both of these grand marajir. I want to read just a couple of lines from Ayatollah Sistani and, you know, I found them to be very, very interesting. He says, and this was part of a longer message that he had put out a number of years ago. He says, “Darastur and dasheikh Ahmad Rawi, I studied with Sheikh Ahmad Rabi, wahua min olamah is sunnati fi samirah.” He is from the olamah of Ahlusunna in the city of Samirah, which is in Iraq. “Walaam ya kon yahtor bibali anhu aala jayre meldhabi.” When I used to go and sit with him, it wasn’t my number one priority that he’s not believing in the same madhab as I. This wasn’t like a thing. I treated him the same way I treat other Muslims, other Shia. And then he continued. He said, “Kama anhnaana.” I thought this was very beautiful. He says, “The same way, kunna, nurajir, or ba’adal atri bah.” We used to go and visit doctors. And you get sick, you visit a doctor. “Wahum min ahelisunna.” And the doctor, the physician, was from Ahelisunna. “Walaikauni min palabati lorluo me’dini ya.” And because I was a student of knowledge, “Lam ya konu ya kudu minni ujurah.” They would never take from me any payments. It’s a Sunni doctor. But he said, “You are someone who’s working for the cause of the faith of Islam. I’m not going to charge you.”
“Walaam yufakiru annaam mina sunna ti awa shia.” And then he continues. He says, “Laa yajuzu.” This is the critical line. “Laa yajuzu.” It is not allowed. “An nusahima.” For us to take part in anything. “Hata bishat rekalimatin.” Even if it is a sentence, or half a sentence, or half a word.
“That will min shahaniha an tu’adiyya ilat tafreta.” That is going to create disunity, sectarianism, and sectarian hate between the two schools of thought. “Wahya jibol ip terado an il khetabil mutishan nij.” And one needs to stay away. “Yajibol” means obligatory. It is obligatory for him to refrain from inflammatory speech. So this is a very clear stance that they have on this issue. Let me add two more points, and InshaAllah, you’ll forgive me if this answer is a little bit longer, but because I know it’s a sensitive topic. There are also figures in history that, from the Shia perspective, are highly revered.
And in fact, from our perspective, they are min kibbar is sahaba. But in the Sunni understanding, these are individuals who left this world, not having believed in the message of the Messenger of Allah. The dominant or the prominent example of this would be Abu Talib, the uncle of the Messenger of Allah. And there, this is also the case, and we have to respect these differences of opinion. There are individuals who, from my perspective, are highly revered in the Sunni school of thought, you know, and I know there are other opinions about that too, but the dominant opinion, I’m assuming, would be that he died not upon the faith of the Messenger of Allah. So these differences of opinions exist. And we just have to be respectful of one another in this regard.
And the last point is respecting our differences of opinion doesn’t mean we don’t study history, we don’t critique history, we don’t learn history, things of that nature. I personally have done a 20 part series on the life of Marawiya, the son of Abu Sufyan, just with the movie that came out, the series that came out from Saudi, maybe I think it was last year, or maybe like six, seven months ago. I don’t know if that made its round here in North America, not really. Yeah, I was surprised by that because the quality of the production was good. The content, I think, was, it didn’t even stand up to like Sunni standards, you know, like even that was, there were a lot of historical inaccuracies in it. And of course, we know Sheikh Yasir himself has done a series on the life of our beloved prophet, which is like, it’s like 1000 parts, but it’s okay. It’s 100, how many parts? 104 parts. And I’m glad to say I have watched all 104 parts of Sheikh’s series. So inshallah, I’ll pass it on.
00:44:09 Sunni Response on Sahaba
Kamran Kazmi
So Sheikh Yasir, obviously, some of these have a deep reverence for the Sahaba. Yeah. But how does a Sunni tradition balance that with honest criticism?
Sheikh Yasir Qadhi
So I like the fact that we are discussing very sensitive topics, and we’re trying to demonstrate that there are differences. And we have to deal with these differences as they are, whether we like them or not; these are sensitive differences, they’re emotional differences. And even though my expertise is in theology. Technically speaking, this is not the biggest difference between Sunni and Shia. It is the concept of imamah and whatnot. But realistically and practically, this becomes the biggest difference. Because the average Muslim doesn’t know the concept of ma’asoom, imamah, or khilaf, or wila’i. This is not something, but the average Sunni is taught to love.
And obviously, that is not the same with Ahl al-Tashayyul. Not just this, but it’s not just a private issue, but many strands. Obviously, Ayatollah Sistani’s fatwah is not followed by all, as you know. So many strands and many preachers and clerics do make it a point to say things that, from the perspective of Ahl al-Sunnah, it’s jarring to say the least. Remember, the anecdotes and incidents that Ahl al-Tashayyul are familiar with since their children are completely absent from our understanding of early Islam. Understand this point, right? We don’t view Abu Bakr, Umar, and Aisha RA, with any lens of negativity. And much of what is ascribed to them in other sources, we don’t view them from our sources. They’re not found there. And one of the most controversial issues, and I will say it because it is going round here and there in English as well, the quote-unquote infamous incident of the attack on Fatima RA’s house. I can assure you, the average Sunni has never even heard, much less would believe, of this incident. Whereas this is standard in Ahl al-Tashayyul. I need you to understand that when people have different views, obviously, their judgments are going to be different. Which one is right and wrong is beyond the scope of this lecture. But obviously, Ahl al-Sunnah believe their version is right. Ahl al-Tashayyul believe their version is right. They both can’t be right. This is where the differences occur.
So from our perspective, the claim that, in particular, Abu Bakr, Umar, and Aisha RA actively opposed a command that was given by the Prophet SAW is not something that we can reconcile with our image of them. It goes against the entire history of their lives as we understand it. And so to claim that again after the Prophet SAW has passed away, they flipped around.
Obviously, this is the whole point of the controversy. So for us, we do not view with any level of sympathy or positivity Tabarro, much less La’an, much less Sabr-Shattem, much less accusations of Kufr. That’s where again the disagreements will happen. And I hope that the Fatwa of Ayatollah Sistani is applied more and more because that is a very pragmatic fatwa. But from our perspective, to answer your question, for us, we are not claiming that the Sahaba are Ma’asum. This is not at all the case.
Rather, the Sahaba are human beings, and they can, and they will make mistakes. They might even commit sins. But number one, one thing that normative Sunnism has agreed upon, number one, no companion, nobody who sees the Prophet SAW as a Muslim and dies as a Muslim will intentionally fabricate against the Prophet SAW. That is a level that is normative for us. i.e., to say the Prophet SAW says this, and he is lying, that is something that goes against our theology.
Number two, the senior sahaba and without a doubt, the sensitive issues between us two deal with the senior sahaba. We are not dealing with the more minor ones in Hajjat-Rwada. We are dealing with the one who for us is the main companion, Abu Bakr (R) and his daughter Aisha. So for us to claim that or to sympathize with the claim that they disobeyed the Prophet SAW, it’s not something that we can in any sense open the door for. So this is one of those issues where we’re going to have to understand there is a fundamental divide in this area. There is no way to really reconcile. This is where it gets personal. In this sense, it is very painful for the average Sunni to hear La’an and Chatham or to hear people who may not know. And again, I want you to understand that the goal of this conversation is not just to explain. It is so that you begin to empathize.
Imagine yourself as a Sunni who has never heard any of the anecdotes that perhaps the Al-Tashiyyah are familiar with. And the first exposure to Al-Tashiyyah is Sab and Chatham of people who are just presented to them as the best of the best. That is the perception that most of the Sunnah have of Al-Tashiyyah because those are the clips that go viral. I know they’re not following Sustani’s Fatwa, but those clerics, their vulgarities and the anger and whatnot, those are the clips that go viral and Al-Tashiyyah, and they’re like, why are you guys full of so much hatred? And of course, we understand history and not that I agree with it, we understand why, but the average Ahlul-Sunnah is like, look, this is a thousand four hundred years ago. This is a figure we respect. We admire. Why are you going out of your way to show so much hatred? And because our perceptions of history are so different, this is where the controversy occurs. But to go back to your specific question, to criticize a political opinion of a companion is not problematic.
But to claim that the senior companions intentionally disobeyed the messenger, SAW, that is theologically problematic. It’s not just politics anymore. So, for example, I’m just giving a hypothetical example. In the Khalaf of Umar RA, he might have made a decision about how to treat a certain tribe, whether to do this or that with a certain tribe. If a later historian says, you know what, maybe he should have done that with that tribe. No big deal. No, Sunni is going to say that this is kufr, this is blasphemy, this is heresy. It’s a siyasi matter. But to impugn the overall desire to follow the Prophet SAW amongst the people who associated with him.
And again, we’re not getting into a debate. I need you to understand this point. For us, as Ahlul-Sunnah, it is also, and I know this isn’t Ahad al-Shaykh, but I have to answer from our perspective, it is also impugning the very person, SAW, who chose them to be companions. Do you see the point here? I know that’s not Ahad al-Tashr, I’m not accusing, but understand from Ahlul Sunnah’s perspective, the people whom the Prophet SAW chose to be his closest through his life is automatically a validation for them.
And the claim that the minute, SAW, he passed away, they just flipped, is not just negative on them. It is also, I mean the one who chooses the entourage or the team, the one who chooses the people in the company, you know, that’s also a responsibility. So for us, we don’t go there. And it is not something we’re going to entertain. And that’s where again, it does become sensitive. And it is what it is. Here’s the point, though. Here’s the point. What are we going to do? Okay, there’s a fundamental, painful reality. What are we going to do now? Are we going to constantly only mention this? Or are we going to realize this is something that has been different for 1400 years?
These controversies go back literally 1000, at the very least 1300 plus years. Again, from our perspective, for the record, these controversies would not go back to the time of the actual Sahabah for us. Let’s understand this point. These notions for us were introduced later on. I have a lecture series I’ve done as well on this. And again, it presents our perspective. Imam Jafar al-Saudiq for us, I gave a lecture at EPIC about Imam Jafar al-Saudiq. Imam Jafar al-Saudiq for us is one of our imams. When we say imam, we don’t mean your imam; we mean our imam. Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafir, Imam Malik, Imam Jafar. He is the same level. And they study together. Right? So I’m saying this to educate you, not to try to convince you, to educate you of our paradigm. We don’t believe Imam Jafar had the notions that many later people had. I understand to you that is preposterous. That’s fine. But understand from our perspective, these are developments taking place. Right? So for us, Imam Jafar, we have a narration in our books, that Imam Jafar was asked about Abu Bakr al-Umar. And he himself says in our tradition that they are wazirayy or a surillah, SAW. These were the wazirs of the Prophet SAW. This is from our version. We thought we had more right to the politics, the khilafah, than others. But this is not an impugning on their character. This is from our tradition. It is in our tradition that Imam Jafar basically said, I’m not impugning their character. They are the wazirayy of the Prophet SAW. They are the people who may be appointed. We’re just saying that we have more right to this matter than they did.
That is what we would call, what Ahlul-Sunnah call, early Tashayyuh. And if you know your history or you know your Firaq, many of the Zaydiyas of our time still have that version of Tashayyuh. Right? So from our perspective, there was no Tabar-ru or Laan or Sab or Shattam taking place from the Ayyimat-al-Bait from our perspective in early Islam. And the concept itself, theologically, would not be problematic, would not be allowed. But to be very pedantic, Sunnis listen to me carefully.
I know it’s emotional, wallahi, I understand it, but I’m being technical here. To accuse the Sahaba of doing wrong is not considered kufr for us. It is problematic; it is a bidah. I’m not going to mince my words here. It is considered to be a heresy, but it is not kufr. And I’m being technical, I want you to understand this point here.
For somebody to say there’s another God besides Allah, okay, there’s no leeway here. For somebody to say there’s a Prophet SAW after the Prophet SAW. There are no two opinions. This is a different religion. But for somebody to say something bad about the Sahaba, that is painful. And for us Sunnis, that is a religious heresy. But it is not a rejection of Allah; it is not kufr. So, understand this technical point here.
And that is the vast majority. And if you need fatawah, I’ll quote you Ibn Taymiyyah and Hajjal and all that they have given these fatawah in this regard. It’s not kufr. So understand this point.
00:55:58 Behavior of a Believer
Sheikh Mahdi Rastani
Yeah, I just wanted to touch on Sabh and Shat. This is beyond the legal ruling that I mentioned. This is something that I want this generation to learn this, to pick up on this, to make it part of their lifestyle. Beyond the legal ruling and beyond the issue of unity and beyond all of these issues, Sabh and Shat swearing at a person, insulting. This is not becoming of a believer. This is not appropriate behavior from a believer. And in our narrations, in fact, Ayatollah Sistani has other rulings that some types of Sabh are fundamentally haram. I’m not even talking in the context of the Sahaba outside of that.
And beyond that, the rest is very morally, it shows a really low level, you know, when someone engages in this. And so when we see this happening on social media, it’s quite sad. If you actually post anything that is supposed to bring a little bit, even a little bit of harmony between the two schools of thought, you will see people in the comment section of the post are going at each other with a lot of Sahb and Shat.
And so this is, unfortunately, sad. I think it’s part of the reason why we have gathered here today. And I want our younger generation, my hope is our younger generation, both from the Shia school of thought and the Sunni school of thought, inshallah, to understand that this is really not becoming of any believer, for that matter, even if we’re not talking about the context of the Sahaba.
00:57:34 Love for Ahlul-Bayt
Kamran Kazmi
I think on one side, we have these conversations of critique. And I think on the other side, we have conversations about love and specifically love for the Ahlul-Bayt, the family of the Prophet. A lot of us, most of us, if not all of us, know that you’ve finished your Salah without sending peace and blessings to the Prophet and his family. And we have figures in our history, like Imam Shafi, who’s a giant in the Sunni tradition, who went and said, if loving the Ahlul-Bayt makes me a Rafidi, then so be it. So my question to both of you is, why is it so important to love the Ahlul-Bayt?
00:58:54
Sheikh Yasir Qadhi
So the concept of loving the Ahlul-Bayt, I believe, is a point of misunderstanding among some people that I’ve met of the Al-Tisha’yur. There is no controversy about actual love. And as I said 10, 20 minutes ago, the Na’asiba Firqada choose to exist no longer exists. There is no scholar, no scholar. It’s not a trend that is around anymore. That says that loving Ahlul-Bayt is not something that is a part of Iman. It’s in our Sunni tradition, the love of Ahlul-Bayt is a part of Iman. There’s no two opinions about this.
Yes, how it is expressed and the theological controversies derived, that’s our issues derived. That’s where the difference has happened. But as a whole, and I have in my Seerah series when I finished it, I gave another 87 lectures about the Sahaba. And I had an entire, I think six episodes about the Ahlul-Bayt, an entire segment on the Ahlul-Bayt. And the first part of that is basically the Faba’il of the Ahlul-Bayt and the necessity of loving Ahlul-Bayt with a special love. And I went over the concept of a person who is related to the Prophet SAW and from his tribe and interacted with him and died upon Iman. There are three extra levels of love that we have for them. And that’s why we have a special section in many of our books of the Sahih Muslim and others. It literally has a section called the blessings of the Ahlul-Bayt. You have sections of a hadith about this.
So without a doubt, we firmly believe that the family of the Prophet SAW deserves a special love. How can we not love those whom he loved extra? The hadith, Fath and Mibilat al-Minni is in our traditions. It’s quoted all the time. Fath and Mibilat al-Minni is that she is a part of me. Every father knows how they feel about their daughters. The Prophet SAW felt this way about his daughter. We all love the Prophet SAW when we love him that much. How can we not have an extra special love for the ones that he had loved for? So there’s no controversy at all about this issue.
The only thing, what do you derive from it? And that is where, of course, for us, we do not derive the concept of Imama or the concept of Isma. We do not derive. It’s simply a love that the Prophet SAW loved them. They are special. They are indeed, as Allah says in the Quran, inna ma’id luhr ludhiba ankum risa al-al-bayti wataheer al-kuntatira. Now, of course, there is a technical issue here, and I have a longer lecture online about this. Without a doubt, without a doubt, the blood relatives of the Prophet SAW are the number one category of Ahlul-Bayt. There’s no question about that. But a difference between us, Sunnis and Shia, we will include the wives as a category of Ahlul-Bayt
We will include the wives because when you say my family, and again, I’m not trying to defend them. This is not a debate. Just empathize. Please understand, I know Imama, Sheikh Mahdi, was saying the same thing. We are not here to try to debate each other. So anything I say, don’t read it in as a debate.
We’re here to try to empathize with the other. When we say family, when I say my family, I include my spouse, my wife, and my children. So we, Ahlul Sunni, also say this. That yes, no doubt. We all know the love that those of you who are parents, InshaAllah, you get married and all of you get married, soon, InshaAllah.
When you get married, okay, you don’t have children, so you love your spouse. When you have kids, I’m telling you from now, those who are young, when you have kids, the love for your kids will reach a level you never thought humanly possible. You never thought humanly possible. It’s a love that is beyond words. And then you’ll feel guilty about how you dealt with your parents, but that’s separated altogether. I had to say that.
So there’s no question that the Prophet’s SAW love for Fatima, the Prophet’s SAW love for his children, cannot be equated with love for spouses. This is human nature. Of course, nobody’s doubting that. But here’s where we slightly disagree.
That love also includes his wives. And the Ahlul Sun includes the wives of the Prophet’s husband. But yes, not to the same level as Fatima and the children of the Prophet. That’s understood. So here’s where we disagree. But there is no disagreement that love of Ahlul Bayt is a part of Imaan. How can any human being have any baud, Audhu Billah, Audhu Billah, of the family of the Prophet SAW. That Firqah that used to exist no longer exists. By the way, the Sunnis don’t know this. I’m to teach them.
There was a Firqah that used to belong to Sunnism called the Naasiba. And this is, it’s true. I know you guys have never heard of this, but they did exist. And some of the early Umayyad governors and people in charge, some of them would flirt with that group. Some of them would like that group for the political reasons. And they had certain scholars that would literally curse the Ahlul-Bayt. And it is correct and historic. And I’m not denying this. That it used to happen at the Manabir, at the command of the Umayyad governors. I’m saying this factually true, but history corrected itself. Umar Abdul A’zeez changed this policy. It was a wrong policy to curse the Ahlul Bayt.” And Umayr Abdul-Aziz canceled it. And because of him, to this day, all, I don’t know if this is in the Shia tradition or not, all Sunni masjids, when they finish the Khutbah, Sunnis, what do we, every Khateeb says at the end of the Khutbah, tell me, which ayah?
Every Sunni masjid in the world, without exception, Sufi, Shia, Abrail, Biid, Diwandi, Tableeghi, all Sunni masjids, they end their Khutbah with this ayah. Do you know what is the origin of why this ayah is in the Khutbah? Because Umar ibn Abdul-Aziz did not want the sub of Ahlul-Bayt to continue. So he got rid of that, and he commanded all of the Khutbah to give this ayah in its place. So I understand there was that Firqan early Islam, but this Firqan no longer exists.
Bottom line, we, Ahlul-Sunnah, love the Ahlul-Bayt with a special love, meaning the love that is above and beyond for any other companion. But that love does not become theological in the sense of masoom imam.
01:05:44 Legacy of Imam al-Hussein
Sheikh Mahdi Rastani
While we’re on this topic, and inshallah I’ll get to the Ahlul-Bayt, in particular, I was going to touch on the role of the legacy of Imam al-Hussein and why it is so central to the Shia school of thought. We are a month away from the month of Muharram, roughly. Of course, we have the 10 days of Dhul-hijjah, which are the first 10 days that are, of course, very special days, very spiritual days. And then after Dhul-hijjah, we will have the month of Muharram. So I’ll get to that in just a second, but I just, as Shaykh was speaking, I was reminded of this point, and I think it’s a wonderful opportunity to clear up this misconception.
Brothers and sisters, as it relates to the wives of the Messenger of Allah, this is an accusation, forgive me, I can’t really, I feel, I don’t know how to really put it into words, but this accusation that you hear sometimes from fringe people, who by the way our scholars have rejected, that Nauthobillah, the wife of the Messenger of Allah, was involved in such and such deed, I don’t even want to say. This, brothers and sisters, from the level of our scholarship has always been rejected.
Not only when it comes to the wives of our beloved Prophet, but also even when it comes to the wives of all of the Prophets of Allah. So in the verses of the Quran, we read in the story of Nuh. And so we had individuals who came to the Imams of the Ahlul-Bayt, and the Imams of the Ahlul-Bayt asked them, how do people understand this? The narration doesn’t say who are these people or whatever, but how do some people at least understand this? They said, “ Oh, it is because the wife of Nuh engaged in such and such a deed, so this wasn’t really her son.” And the Imam there, he fundamentally rejects this idea. And he explains that no, this is a person who doesn’t believe, so spiritually speaking, he doesn’t have a connection to you, though he is from your blood and so on and so forth, but spiritually, on the day of judgment, you will not feel a closeness to this individual, because he has rejected the message of Allah SAW knowingly.
So this is something I wanted to clear. I’ll get to this point a little bit later, maybe after the prompt that we have, that we have to be very careful. I’m going to come back to the issue of the clips that Sheikh mentioned, which is a very important point of...
When we see clips, nobody can stop clips, like clips are always going to be a thing, right? So there’s some steps we have to take there to filter that information, okay? And I’ll come back to this later, because there are well-known people who some of them dress the way I’m dressed tonight, and will say these types of things that our own grand scholars have rejected. So inshallah, I’ll come back to that a little bit later.
On the topic of the Ahlul-Bayt, so Sheikh very beautifully, eloquently mentioned the Sunni perspective. The Shia perspective is that no, the love that the Messenger of Allah had for the Ahlul-Bayt was something that came specifically because of their elevated status. And because it’s based off of their elevated status, it is something that is allocated to certain individuals amongst his relatives. There are many who come from the lineage of the Messenger of Allah. For us, there are particular individuals, particularly those who the Messenger of Allah gathered under his Kissa. So you might have heard this narration because it’s also in the Sunni Hadith corpus, and very, very well narrated, that the Messenger of Allah gathered Ali and Fatima and Hassan and Hussein, SAW, under this cloak, this Yemeni cloak. The Yemeni cloak, and he said that this is my Ahlul-Bayt, and so on and so forth. So for us, the love of the Ahlul-Bayt is not stemming from the love that a father might just have to his children. So this is where the difference of opinion certainly exists.
The incident of Karbala and the centrality of that story to Shia theology, and the commemorations that you will see in just starting in about a month, like Muharram for us, is actually one of the busiest times of the year, okay? So after Ramadan, Muharram is like one of the busiest times of the year.
A lot of times I’ve had this question, and Ahlul Sunnah asked this question, and from their framework, it is a valid question. Why, out of all of the relatives, out of all of those who the Messenger of Allah lost, why is it that when it comes to Hussein, the Shia show this level of importance? So I will divide my answer into two points.
First and foremost, we have to understand that even within the Sunnah hadith corpus, we do have Athar, we do have traditions, about an incident that took place where the Messenger of Allah was given some of the Turbah of where his grandson would be killed and martyred, okay? And there’s a number of narrations, some of them have weak chains, some of them are sahah, but nonetheless, generally, this is a concept that exists there. And that the Messenger of Allah took this dirt and he kissed it, and that he cried heavily, okay? This is something that we do find in some of the Sunni narrations, and that in some of the narrations it says he gave from this dirt to Umma Salama, which by the way is another wife of the Messenger of Allah who is very highly revered in the Shia tradition. Umma Salama, and of course for us, Khadija would be the greatest of the wives of the Messenger of Allah; it’s different from the Sunnah understanding, of course. So this is something that has happened, however, and I think this is a point that even our Shia audience would benefit from. Because I’ve seen Shia explain this point in an incomplete way. So a lot of Shia will say, “Well, look, even the Messenger of Allah cried for Hussein,” which is true. He heard this prophecy, and Umma Salama says, “I came and saw him, and the tears were flowing from his eyes.” You know, sometimes you cry, tears will gather in your eyes, sometimes you cry, tears are flowing from your eyes, right? So this is the state of the Prophet that he was in. However, this is not the whole answer.
The Messenger of Allah also cried for some of his other relatives. The missing part in this is then the emphasis and the tens of narrations that we have in our Hadith corpus, where the Ahlul-Bayt, some of them go back to the Ahlul-Bayt, the Imam, some of them go back to the Messenger of Allah himself. This is our Hadith corpus we’re talking about now. Particularly and specifically emphasized the mourning, the martyrdom of Hussein.
These hundreds of narrations are not found in the Sunni Hadith corpus. So this is the missing part of this whole thing. A lot of Shia will tell you, “The Messenger of Allah also cried for Hussein.” That’s not the whole story, that’s correct. But also, there are tens, I can say hundreds, there’s whole books written on this. Kamaluz Yaraat of Ibn Quleway Al-Kummi is put together on everything related to visiting the Ahlul-Bayt and commemorating them. If you look at the book, the book is like 300 pages. Two-thirds of the book is about Al-Imam Al-Hussein.
So that emphasis is particularly for them. So if someone says, and this is a valid question, why do the Shia like to commemorate Muharram in such a grand manner? The answer is the Prophet cried for his grandson, of course, but also the Ahlul-Bayt asked us specifically to commemorate this martyrdom. Let me ask the Shia a question. Who is greater? Is it Hussein or is it his father, Imam Ali? Of course, Imam Ali has a greater status. We all understand this.
But even when it comes to the martyrdom of Imam Ali, in the month of Ramadan, we don’t commemorate it to the same level. You understand this. Why? Because we don’t have that same level of emphasis. So we have Daliil, we have narrations telling us, commemorate this. What’s the wisdom behind it? I have a full lecture on this, so I’m not going to take too much of your time. It’s called, Why do the Shia commemorate Ashura for those who want to read more about it. You can look there. To simplify, the summary of it is simple because from the perspective of the Ahlul Bayt. Now we’re going into the Hikmah of this teaching, the Hikmah, the reasoning, the wisdom behind it.
From the perspective of the Ahlul-Bayt, Karbala represents the clearest and most blatant contrast between good and evil. And that is why the Ahlul-Bayt, we’re going into the wisdom now, the Daliil is the narrations. But the wisdom behind it, from their perspective, they said if there’s anything that represents truth versus falsehood, you should look towards Karbala. And that is why the event is commemorated at a level unlike the martyrdom of any of the other of the Ahlul Bayt themselves. So that’s, forgive me for the long answer.
01:15:41
Sheikh Yasir Qadhi
So with regards to Karbala, multiple leads. Firstly, I’ve given not one, but at least four or five lectures online. You can find them. The first lecture I gave was almost 15 years ago. It talks about the Sunni perspective of Karbala. You can listen to that. And then I also have a library chat, which is on my YouTube channel, in which I discuss the status of Yazid in Sunni Islam. Again, a misunderstanding about the status of Yazid. Yazid, Imam Ahmad, and others explicitly said, “Can any Muslim love Yazid?” He literally said this, right? So, understand from a Sunni perspective, Ibn Jousi, Gibla’an of Yazid, Yazid is not considered to be sacred by any Sunni scholar. The only difference is how bad should we make shatam or not. That’s where the controversy comes.
Karbala, for us as Sunni Muslims, was a tragedy of the highest magnitude. And there is no person alive today that I’m aware of that is sympathetic with the evil people on the side of Karbala. Nobody justifies Karbala. Nobody is in favor of the people in charge, all of them, the armies, the government. Nobody is in favor of it at all. But here’s where the but comes. We do not derive theology from what we consider to be a historical calamity. This is the difference. For us, the killing of Ali RA was a bigger tragedy. And the killing of Uthman RA caused greater civil wars. These were historical tragedies.
The fact that they’re historical does not diminish the pain. But we do not derive theological principles. The religion of Allah did not change for us, nor did any new issues or commandments come. And I know the Shia don’t interpret it that way. But from our perspective, the tragedy of Karbala is one of the most damning stains of early Islam. No question about it. One of the most painful episodes. And if any of us had been alive, there is no question we would have been on the side of the Ahlul-Bayt. There is no question on anybody’s mind. We would have been there defending with our lives the grandson of the Prophet SAW against the evil tyrants. No Sunni would have any doubt about this. No Shia would have any doubt about this. So there’s no controversy over the evilness of that tragedy.
But once again, the concept of the isma or whatnot, this is where we would just disagree and say, it’s a historical tragedy. Tragedies have happened before, and they will happen afterwards. And no doubt, the way that Karbala took place is especially painful. No question about it. And in that sense, it is a worse tragedy than the assassination of his father, Ali RA or of ʿUthman RA. In that sense, yes, the children dying. There’s no question about that. But again, for us, that’s the dividing line: the historical tragedy remains historical. And that is why, for Sunnis, the average Sunni is not taught the first 80 years of the post-Hijra, the early Islam. They basically learned the Seerah and then the kind of sort of that’s it. So the average Sunni, because history is not viewed as theology, because history doesn’t occupy the same status for ʿAhlul Sunnah, it’s not something that is constantly brought up. And unfortunately, some ʿAhlul-Sunnah make a point to go against the first 10 days. And that’s the problem. We know that in order to make themselves different from ʿAhlul-Tushayyaw, they might do the most bizarre things, you know, the fadah ʿIluf, another group of whatnot. It doesn’t make any sense. We get that. Or to intentionally do something to make it appear as if they’re astagfirullah, trivializing the historical tragedy. We understand that it should not be done.
And I would like to stay for the record, me personally, insha’Allah. Every year, if you look at my track record, I do bring up the issue of Karbala. And I derive historical lessons, and I say, but we keep it historical. So the memory of Karbala should remain a part of our tradition. The pain of Karbala should remain a part of being a Muslim. What we extract from it is where we would have to slightly disagree. Slightly because I say, who can possibly disagree that evil was done and that Hussein RA was standing for truth and justice, and he wanted to see a better world. Who can possibly disagree with that? Right? Everybody’s on that wavelength. But the issue comes, did Allah command him or not? And again, that’s where we say, no, this is his, like I said, had we been alive, we would have been on his side, but we do not view that Allah commanded him to do this. Right? That’s where we would have to disagree with his function. Allahu ʿan.
01:20:40 Prompt #1: Sectarian Tension
Kamran Kazmi
One thing that makes Nuun really unique is that we don’t believe in just listening to a lecture. We believe that to really understand, especially as a topic as nuanced as this, you have to really engage and you have to interact with him. So we’re going to be putting a prompt on the wall, and if you guys can scan the QR code and put in, discuss it with your friends nearby, write down your answer, and then we’ll go from there.
01:21:06
Kamran Kazmi
We’re gonna pick one person to give the response.
Audience Member #1
I feel like there’s a common sentiment that Sunnis are just apolitical, especially in the context of Shi’as showing so much solidarity to the ummah. And I think that we have real examples of that kind of being true, which inshā’Allāh, I hope we can talk about.
Audience Member #2
First of all, I’ll just welcome him up here for this beautiful conversation. I gotta say, first, as a youth mentor, alḥamdulillāh, I work with the youth. And of course, like we hear misconceptions about Shia, for example, from our perspective. I think my role as a youth mentor is to be able to answer any common questions and to try to emphasize unity, especially during these common times. Because all of us, how did I--we found the need and urgency to come here; however, others may not recognize us as often. So someone has to go out there and also deliver the same message and the same talking points.
01:22:44 Takeaways from Today
Kamran Kazmi
Sheikh Yasir, Sheikh Madhi, there are young Shi’as and young Sunnis, there are people in the audience who are going to go home and listen to this lecture, and I just want to ask what is the one piece of advice you would want them to leave with?
Sheikh Mahdi Rastani
I’m not going to stick to one, okay?
But I will make it quick. So, a couple of points. First and foremost, your learning journey has to continue. This is very important. And if you sit there and hear something from another school of thought, and your reaction is, “ How could they possibly say this?” That usually means you have to do a little bit more learning in that area. It doesn’t mean when you do the learning, you’re going to agree with that school of thought. It just means you will understand better where they are coming from. This is very important.
So number one, continue your learning. Like I said at the beginning, this is one small piece in a bigger puzzle you have to build for yourself. I know after spending 10 years in Qom, Sheikh Yasir spent 10 years in Medina. I think he would echo this sentiment as well. There’s constantly a sense of, I need to learn more. And so I want our youth to also take this sense and really build off of it. That’s number one.
Number two is when you guys see stuff that is inflammatory, instead of taking it and saying, oh, well, look what this person is saying, what that person is saying. By the way, this happens on both sides. You have to have also an ability to start researching who is this person, what is his stance, and what do the scholars of that school of thought say about this person?
Which is not an easy thing to do, by the way, which means when I get these types of things, these clips or whatever, I have to pause. I can’t be so quick to condemn a whole school of thought.
This is a problem. And so I will come back to this point. There are at least a couple individuals who, of course, dress like this and spread things that are blatant kufr.
Worship the Ahlul-Bayt and things of this nature. This is blatant kufr. This is blatant shirk or us or people who write books who say that, you know, Aisha RA engaged in such and such. That’s the title of the book. These are individuals who in our school of thought, the scholars have, in fact, they have attacked the scholars. We put it that way. They have attacked our grand scholars. So always be thoughtful about this person that I’m listening to this clip from. Where does he stand in the other school of thoughts? This is very crucial.
Number three is understanding. And this could be a discussion for another time. Understanding that a lot of day to day things that separate Shia and Sunni are fiqh differences. Fiqh differences. I have seen Shia explain why we pray on a Torba, and the guy starts explaining that you connect to the dirt, and it connects to the energy in the world, and this. No, no, no.
We pray on the Torba because the imams of the Ahlul-Bayt had particular conditions about what you can do sajda on. And they said it has to be from the earth, and it’s a fiqhi discussion and a lot of other discussions, by the way, where you sit there and say, how could this school of thought, it’s a fiqhi discussion. This school of thought has this hadith. You don’t have that hadith. This is their view. That is your view. It’s simple. So feel theology usually a lot deeper than this. Fiqh differences. It’s quite simple.
And finally, and lastly, we always have to separate and understand that even if the scholars of both schools of thought encourage a particular methodology, it doesn’t mean that everyone in the masses is going to actually follow. What we all have in common here. This is my last point that I’m going to make is we all have an understanding of the Ummah and this Ummah is certainly under attack.
And it is painful to watch what is happening. We see Gaza, and of course Gaza for us, you know, the incident of Karbala is an inspiration for us in how to digest and deal with situations like Gaza, where oppression is so high, materialistically. There is no victory materialistically. But because you are on the right side, Allah has promised you that Allah SWT will grant you victory, and our perception of that victory is very different. So that’s why Karbala for us, it just helps us. And I think it’s something that can help the whole Muslim Ummah digest and understand, like things that we see, like Gaza, that tears our hearts apart.
This is on one side, and we also, of course, see it happening in Lebanon today. These are the commonalities that we have. A Sunni Sheikh shared this with me. He said when the attack happened on Iran and the schoolgirls, right, the school in Minab, which is a place in southern Iran, most Iranians even don’t go there. He said when this happened, I actually brought my own kids into the room. I showed them, you know, the older ones, pictures of the girls and some of the young boys who were killed. And I said, look at these faces. These are your brothers and sisters. And I truly appreciated that. I thought that was beautiful. And I shared with that Sunni Sheikh. And I said, from a very, very young age, I remember being six or seven. And we used to drive five to six hours to get to a Quds rally, right? A Quds rally, which in the Shia school of thought is the last Friday, typically of Ramadan. And of course, protests have changed over, you know, the decades and so on and so forth. But back in the day, your voice being heard, the only way to do that was a protest. There was no other real way unless you had some way into the mainstream media. Now social media is there, and those things are different. But I remember going, driving five or six hours. Never did I hear my parents turn around and say, oh, this is these are majority Sunni Muslims. No, never. So these are commonalities that we have. And like I said at the beginning, I think SubhanAllah, it just goes and manifests that point and shows that point so much more that we have gathered here on the day of the Nakba. Something that happened tens of years ago that our Palestinian brothers and sisters are still struggling with today. And now Shia and Sunni are struggling with because that oppression has not been contained only to Palestine. Of course, it has spread all over the region. So, beyond these smaller tips that I mentioned earlier, remember that these concerns that we have at their very depth, at their very core, are the same for the Ummah. And we pray inshallah that as time goes on and as this generation is up and coming, we have a generation that understands how to agree, to disagree respectfully on theological differences. And then, inshallah, move slowly in the direction of a sense of unity.
01:30:32
Sheikh Yasir Qadhi
What I would advise any person in the audience is to understand that some people, by their nature, desire, tension, and firkah and hatred, and other people, by their nature, want peace and unity. It’s not a sectarian thing in this regard. This is the reality of the world. Politics. There are some people in any corporation they want gossip, they want backstabbing, they want to do nasty things. They want to see drama and other people. They want their thinking more empathetically, more universally. It’s nothing new. So when it comes to Sunni, Shia, you have people on each side that want to create more tension and drama. They love to see division and hatred for them. This is how they get their energy, seeing hatred of other people. So you all need to ask yourself, who are you listening to for this very sensitive issue? Because you will also find in the past, in the present, like people like us who understand the differences and yet are saying differences are there, but we still need to work together for the common good.
This level of maturity, it has always existed, but especially now it is more imperative that it exists. So my ask to you, number one, who are you taking as your authorities? There are within Sunnism so many people, and especially the online crowd. And by the way, the online crowd and its popularity are not reflective of the real world and its impact. Online drama is different than real world. And generally speaking, such radical preachers on both sides are actually not popular amongst actual living flesh and blood.
The most radical voices are only popular online. So why are you turning to them? Why are you assessing this very sensitive reality from people who are quite literally untrained, or if they are trained, their fringe characters?
Go to the senior scholars, go to those who have studied and are active with actual massage, actual people, because being active with real people gives you empathy and wisdom, gives you knowledge that books alone will not give you. And that is why you will always find the giants of all traditions in our tradition. Look to the great scholars, whether it’s Mufti, Tathri, Ithmani, whether it is Shekh, Whatadado, whatever strand you look at, their language is radically different from the, what do you call them? The alt bros or whatever. What do you call them? The dawah bros. The dawah bros online. Right. It’s radically different. Why? The very people whom those dawah bros claim to look up to would never speak or approve of the language that these youth do. And the same goes for the radicals on the Al-Tashayr side. That you find the most hardcore are not Ayatollah Sistani. You don’t find that.
So my advice to the youth here is, don’t take knowledge from somebody your age. Take knowledge from those, triple your age, because they have wisdom. They’ve lived through life. They understand the realities of what this means.
Also, I want to point out here that we have in our tradition and our books of Hadith, the Prophet SAW, “Hadee, istaf tikalbak.” Follow your conscience and your heart. “Wala aftaqana sua aftaq.” No matter what people are saying, if something feels wrong, then it is all likelihood wrong. And when you have these voices calling for anger, hatred, tension, and you see with your own eyes, why would we want to do that right now? It doesn’t sit well with your conscience. Then follow what the Prophet SAW himself said. Follow your “qalbak,” “Istaf tikalbak.” Your pure heart knows that the Ummah should be united. Your pure heart knows that, “Okay, we disagree, but we’re praying together. We’re saying the Kalimah together, reading the same book together, facing the same Qibla together.” You’re conscious. You don’t need a PhD in theology. I have a PhD in theology, but I’ll tell you, with that PhD, you don’t need a PhD in theology to tell you what unites us really is much more than what differences we have. So there will be people constantly harping on the differences. Let them. Don’t choose them as your leaders. Don’t choose them as voices of authority. And within your own life, marginalize voices of hate. And find voices of wisdom. Find voices of maturity. In this whole dialogue, neither of us trivializes the differences.
We’re not saying we’re the same. We’re not saying it’s exactly the same. But we are saying that we are one Ummah. We are saying that we are one, one entire united Muslim. And within that, yes, there are divisions. Some of them are more painful than others, but those divisions, they are not so insurmountable that it means we cannot come together as brothers in faith. Not just because of Islamophobia. Not just because of anti-Muslim bigotry, but literally because in the end of the day, “Inna hai dihi ummachukum ummatannwa haida wa’ana rabbukum.” This is straight from the Qur’an. “Inna hai dihi ummachukum ummatwa” and Allah says, “Khuwa sammaakumul muslimin.” The name that Allah has chosen for you is Muslim. And both Sunni and Shia, if they were to be asked by anybody, “What are you?” First thing that comes to mind, “Oh, I’m a Muslim.” That is the primary identity. All other identities are subsidiary. All other identities are under the big term. And the final anecdote I want to give.
And this is really the way that I’m in. And not some humble braggart boasting, “It is what I am.” Around 10 years ago, when the anti-Muslim bigotry began to rear its ugly head in the time of Obama, if you remember that time, it was really after 9-11, then it went down, and then when Obama came, it went up, and then it went down. Now we see the third round.
I’ve gone through three rounds of Islamophobic concerted efforts in this country. The first was 9-11, which wasn’t even as bad as Islamophobia as it was when Obama came, and then the third is even worse now. So in the second round, and I was in Tennessee back then, I got a phone call from one of the graduates of Al-Azhar University in another city, and there was a major controversy happening in that city. What was the controversy? In the course of the anti-Muslim bigotry, the Ahl al-Tashayr Mosque had been disfigured and vandalized, and graffiti had been drawn on it, vulgarities and rocks thrown, so the windows were damaged. So now the controversy was what? There would be a public march in front of City Hall to show tolerance and unity for all religions, especially for Muslims. So the Shaykh was new a few years. He was broken English, he spoke to an Arabic. He goes, “Some members of my community are saying that we cannot march on behalf of Ahl al-Tashayr, because they do, because the long list of theology comes.”
So I got frustrated, and I said to this Imam that, “Shaykh, when the people that tarnished the masjid and vandalized the masjid, when they were driving their car, did they pass by your masjid and say, “Oh, we cannot do anything, that’s a Sunni masjid,” and then they intentionally found Ahl al-Tashayr Masjid, or were they hating the religion of Allah and his messenger?” He said, “No, of course it was hated Allah’s messenger.” So I said, “Then why are you importing their hate amongst us? Why are you importing what the people who tried to harm a masjid had, you’re importing it into our community?”
And one clear reality, and I want you to log on to this, don’t just trust my words for this. And I couldn’t believe this, I had to watch the clip myself.
The IDF, the Israeli Defense Force, has an official spokesperson who speaks broken Arabic with an accent, but he speaks Arabic enough to... He grew up in that land, so he speaks Arabic in an understandable manner, right? Amme and not fusha. And I had to see this clip with my own two ears, wallahi, just to make sure, because I saw somebody talking about it, I said, “This cannot be.” I had to see it with my own ears. And I saw the whole clip.
The IDF guy in the last few months was quoting Fatahwa from specific radical Sunni clerics, the more hard-line, making takfir of the Shia and telling the Sunnis, “How can you support any person who follows this?”
Now, wallahi, use the brain Allah has given you. If an IDF spokesperson wants to exacerbate tension and wants Sunni and Shia to hate one another, are you really not understanding that that is something that irritates the heck out of them? And are you going to fall prey at that basic level to listen to the worst enemies?
I think we can all agree on that.
How can we not all stand, like Imam Hussain RA will be along, how can we not all stand against that tyranny and all unite against that injustice? This is what Islam teaches us. And I say as a Sunni, I can derive this from Karabala. Yes, no doubt about that. We stand in the face of such injustice, and together as one ummah, we understand that we are all believers in Allah and worshippers based upon the message of our Prophet SAW, So may Allah SWT grant us wisdom and courage and hidaya and may Allah SWT grant us all its loss and sincerity.
With this inshaAllah we can be very much with it.
01:41:08 Closing Remarks
Kamran Kazmi
You said something in one of the Nuun Sessions that you were part of where the next 30 years will determine the next 300.
And it is conversations like these in spaces like this one with people like the ones here that I truly believe will end up changing the world.
We want to do more of this. We’re just getting started. And we rely with the generosity of others to make this stuff happen.
All I’m going to say is, thank you guys for coming. Please support us. And please be far from changing what we’re trying to make. And make blessings that we love today and really win the world forward. Thank you, Shaykh Yasir. Thank you, Sheikh Mahdi.
Amazing initiative. Thank you so much for bringing the community together for a much needed dialogue. May Allah SWT bless and reward the whole team 🤲🏼